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Low Tech

March 5, 2025

The 5 Questions Big Green Egg’s New CEO Asked 86 Employees When He Took The Job

How does an outsider step into leading a company that has only had two previous CEOs over its half-century existence?

For Dan Gertsacov, who became CEO of Big Green Egg last summer—the barbecue company renowned for its devoted following and signature green ceramic kamado-style grills—the answer is straightforward: “Seek first to understand, then be understood.”

Gertsacov adopted this mantra from author Stephen Covey, spending his initial months speaking extensively with people across the company, asking them the same five questions to gain deep insights about the business and shape its future direction.

“I interviewed eighty-six individuals and asked every one of those people the same five questions over a four-month period,” Gertsacov explained.

He borrowed these questions from his former Harvard business professor, Michael D. Watkins, who published them in his influential book, “The First 90 Days: Proven Strategies for Getting Up to Speed Faster and Smarter.” Those questions are:

  1. “What is the company’s biggest challenge?”
  2. “Why is that the biggest challenge?”
  3. “What are the untapped opportunities for our company?”
  4. “How would you approach those opportunities?”
  5. “If we were to switch places—if you were in my shoes—what would you focus on?”

After conducting his extensive interviews, Gertsacov distilled his findings into a concise one-pager, summarizing key insights and charting the strategic direction under his leadership. His primary message emphasized growth, cultivating a mission-driven team, and continual innovation.

This innovation intrigued me, especially since Gertsacov previously built his career at tech giants like Google and assisted global brands like McDonald’s with digital transformation. Now, he leads a company distinctly known for its traditional, low-tech ceramic grills—products that, apart from their iconic green color, would fit comfortably into culinary history a century or more ago.

Yet, according to Gertsacov, innovation at Big Green Egg must respect and leverage its greatest strength: the passionate and loyal community of users that has driven the company’s success for decades.

“Big Green Egg has grown through word of mouth and the community,” said Gertsacov. “Preserve the core and stimulate progress.”

So, what does meaningful innovation look like for a company whose products have remained relatively unchanged since founder Ed Fisher began selling them in the early ’70s to supplement his pachinko import business? Gertsacov believes innovation lies in solving practical consumer problems—specifically, making food preparation easier—without unnecessary complications like digital connectivity.

“Rather than adding digital connectivity for its own sake, [we’re] focused on customer experience enhancements—such as enabling the grills to reach cooking temperatures more quickly—without compromising the integrity of the grilling experience,” he explained.

Improving how quickly the grills heat up directly benefits users by fitting the Big Green Egg seamlessly into more everyday cooking occasions. Gertsacov believes that simplifying the user experience will sustain and amplify the powerful word-of-mouth marketing that has always propelled Big Green Egg’s growth.

“We need to make it less intimidating and lower the barriers so it feels more accessible,” Gertsacov said. “We need to make the tent of Big Green Egg bigger to fit more folks, all while preserving the core beliefs of the community already inside.”

You can listen to our full conversation below or find it on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

September 15, 2021

Heinz Unveils A Packet Roller to Help You Avoid Mustard Pants

Not all innovations in food can be world-changing. Sometimes you want to keep mustard off your pants, and that’s why Heinz is rolling out a new device just for that: The Heinz Packet Roller.

The device features a corner cutter and lets you squeeze out the ketchup or mustard onto your food. It’s also small and has a keychain attached, and while I don’t see anyone stuffing this in their pockets, I can see busy drive-thru users throwing one in the glove box.

But all this begs the question: is a Juicero of condiment packets necessary? Probably not, but my guess Heinz knows that and sees this as more of an attempt to gain some social media clicks outside of their standard condiment marketing efforts.

Not that I don’t see some value. How many times have you gotten ketchup or mustard on your hands or clothes and still haven’t gotten out all the condiment? Yeah, me too.

But in the end, I wonder if Heinz should stop building gadgets like this that make using a lousy product (plastic condiment packets) better and instead work on better packaging to keep all the empty packets out of landfills?

You can see the Heinz Packet Roller in action below.

Introducing Heinz Packet Rollers :15

July 12, 2021

You Can Now Buy a Juicero and the Coolest Cooler (as Toys)

The food tech landscape is littered with devices that coulda been and companies that had great aspirations but for various reasons failed spectacularly. Now, two of the most infamous hardware failures, the Juicero and the Coolest Cooler, are being resurrected — as toys.

Internet collective MSCHF has dropped its collection of Dead Startup Toys (hat tip to The Verge), featuring five famous tech hardware flameouts: One Laptop Per Child, Theranos Minilab, Jibo, Juicero and Coolest Cooler. Each toy is a mini version of its real-life (well, real dead) counterpart made out of PVC, costing $40 a piece.

Along with the tiny collectibles, MSCHF has also released some deep satire explaining its move, writing on its website:

Behold these beautiful mutants, hoisted on petards of their own solid-aluminum-unibody construction. We salute these voyagers, flown too close to the blood-red suns of their own fever dreams, on wings made of oh-so-flammable dollar bills, whose inexplicably sincere hopes became our most surreal entertainment…

That sharp tongue isn’t spared when it comes to either the Juicero or the Coolest Cooler. Juicero, of course, was the company that raised $120 million and sold a $400 juice machine that squeezed juice from proprietary packets of fruits and veggies. The company died almost overnight when Bloomberg reported that your hands basically worked as well as the machine. Juicero had actually set up a pretty sophisticated supply chain and packaging process that could justify some of its fundraising, but most people only remember the hardware, which, as MSCHF points out, is pretty easy to make fun of:

A teardown of the Juicero machine revealed massive overengineering and production spend clearly approved without input from either a businessperson or production manager. The machine was full of specialized custom-tooled parts, all in service to a fundamentally flawed general operating concept that involved applying force by means of a flat plate with 0 mechanical advantage. This contributed to both its massive cost and remarkable non-utility.

Image via MSCHF

For its part, the Coolest Cooler was an early example of hardware crowdfunding that goes nowhere. The multi-function device (it had a blender and a speaker!) raised $13 million on Kickstarter, but the company behind it was woefully unprepared for the realities of mass production and eventually wound up in hot water with the Oregon Department of Justice. MSCHF sums the whole situation up pretty well, writing:

The Coolest Cooler stands as a cautionary tale for crowdfunding as a whole, and possibly the landmark event in the crowdfunding paradigm’s fall from grace. For that at least we salute it in memoriam.

I’m not sure whom would purchase these toys, but they are a playful reminder that not everything that glitters in food tech is gold. And that even good ideas, when poorly executed, can wind up remaining famous for all the wrong reasons.

May 20, 2021

Low-Tech: Casters Added Mobility to Chowbotics’ Vending Machines

I write about the new wave of smart vending machines a lot. And when I do, it’s almost always in the context of a fixed installation. Airports or corporate campuses and the like can tuck vending machines away in an alcove or corner and just leave them there for customers to find. But what if those vending machines were made mobile using a basic piece of hardware you can find at any Home Depot?

During her talk at our ArticulATE food automation conference this week, Chowbotics/DoorDash Head of Marketing & Design, Mara Behrens, explained how some of Chowbotics’ Sally robots were made mobile by putting them on casters. By literally putting Sally on wheels, the vending machine could be moved around a building to where hungry people are throughout the day and night.

For instance, in a hospital a Sally could be easily moved around when a particular area is closed for the night. Or in an office building, a vending machine could be moved between floors to accommodate different worker shifts.

Throughout the day at ArticulATE, we had discussed drones whizzing across Ireland’s skies to drop off lattes at people’s homes, robots packed with groceries traversing sidewalks and autonomous robot cooks capable of creating hundreds of different dishes — all modern technological miracles. But this basic caster idea stuck with me because of its simplicity.

There are companies like Yo-Kai Express, which is making an autonomous vending machine for college campuses that can be hailed to come to your location. And Fanbot roams malls, fully stocked with snacks and drinks to sell. Those solutions are great and I look forward to using them some day! But they are also expensive to outfit and require a team of people to design and implement.

Industrial casters on the other hand, are around $15 apiece. They are certainly not high-tech solution, but not every solution needs to be.

January 22, 2021

W&P’s Reuseable Silicone Bags Are Quite Useful

I love silicone storage bags.

In some other context, this might seem odd to proclaim in public, but The Spoon is all about kitchen innovation, and the invention of silicone bags to replace plastic Ziploc-style bags is unequivocally great. Along those lines, this month, W&P Design, which makes a variety of food-related goods, released its new line of silicone bags. After using them for a couple of weeks, I can say they are worth picking up (if you don’t mind the higher price).

If you aren’t familiar, silicone storage bags use food-grade silicone instead of disposable plastic. They are reuseable, so after you polish off that leftover chicken breast, a silicone bag can be re-used to store cheese or salad or whatever. They can also be used for sous vide-ing food if the thought of submerging your steak in a plastic bag in a hot bath for hours skeeves you out.

W&P sent me a variety of its Porter line of silicone bags to try out. In addition to being reuseable, the bags are microwave, freezer and dishwasher safe as well as BPA free. They come in a variety of shapes and sizes, including stand-up bags that can remain upright on their own.

I don’t microwave or freeze a ton of food, so I mostly used the bags for leftover storage. For that, the Porter bags are great. I was able to fill and re-fill the bags, which still worked after multiple dishwasher cycles. The bags didn’t warp or stain and my food stayed fresh.

My only gripe is that the locking mechanism doesn’t stay closed as much as I’d like. (The seal on the Stasher brand of silicone bags seems to work better.) There were a few times where the seal popped back open, though that might have been my trying to stuff an extra leftover pizza slice into an already full bag. Even so, I would stick with using the stand up bags if you are going to store something with a lot of liquid in it, just in case.

The other sticking point for people will probably be price. Like the Stasher brand of reusable silicone bags, W&P’s Porter bags ain’t cheap. A single 10 oz. bag costs $8.00, one 34 oz. bag costs $9.60 and a 50 oz stand-up bag will set you back $16.00. These prices can be a little bit cheaper than Stasher bags, but it really depends on the size/shape/color you get.

While the initial cost is high, you can re-use them for a long time, so the cost per use will turn out to be quite low. Plus, you have the added benefit of not using a storage bag once and then tossing it in a landfill and adding to our already huge plastic waste problem. And that, too, is something I love.

November 6, 2020

Want to Make Cool, Modernist Cuisine Style Food Videos? This Kickstarter Might Be for You!

High-end commercials are expert at making you hungry or thirsty — chips literally explode with nacho cheese flavor, orange juice flies across the screen before slowly cascading down perfect cubes of ice.

If you run a scrappy CPG company that has champagne product video tastes but a beer budget, or you just want to make cool food videos a la Modernist Cuisine, then you should check out The Garage Learning online film school project, currently crowdfunding on Kickstarter.

The Garage is offering up a mix of online classes for different levels, in-person workshops (which they say will follow COVID-19-related protocols), and perhaps the coolest part: DIY kits to build things like catapults, LED lighting and sliders.

There are different levels [–OF WHAT?–] available, depending on your existing skillset. The Beginner course teaches you how to use your smartphone video, and there are also 101 classes in lighting, electronics and basic rigging. Intermediate is more for still photographers using DSLR for video as well as special effects and slow motion. The Advanced level teaches higher level motion control, compositing techniques and entrepreneurship.

Prices vary from $29 for one beginner class to $199 for a one year intermediate subscription to $2,999 for everything including the DIY kits. Classes are scheduled to start in June of 2021.

One of the people behind The Garage is Steve Giralt, who sharp-eyed readers might recognize from a video he put out last year about shooting video with robots. The Garage is taking that initial video and really blowing it out into a full-on class.

Being able to put more of a professional polish on product videos would actually be a useful skill for a lot of startup food brands. Hiring creative agencies and video houses is expensive and time consuming, and the ability to create your own videos in-house that make a small up-cycled, plant-based snack bite as alluring as a big chain cheeseburger on TV could be boon for budget conscious entrepreneurs.

October 23, 2020

Some Fun High-Tech Suggestions for Contactless Halloween Candy Delivery

Among the many, many, many things COVID-19 has upended is Halloween. For obvious reasons, the idea of interacting with hundreds of strangers crowded on your doorstep in a single night to personally hand out candy isn’t quite as sweet during a pandemic.

As such, we at The Spoon have wracked our brains to figure out how food tech might be able to rescue any Halloween encounters you might have with contactless delivery. Here are a few methods we’ve seen elsewhere online.

ALEXA POWERED CANDY CHUTE
One idea that seems to be gaining traction around the web is building a candy chute. Basically you get a six-foot piece of PVC pipe or whatever, and slide those fun-sized Snickers and more down to the trick or treaters. There isn’t much “tech” in this approach, and you still have to touch the candy bars to slide them down the chute. But those intrepid enough could zhuzhe it up a bit by building some kind of Alexa-enabled, Arduino-powered food dispenser at the top. Kiddos arrive and just have to yell “Alexa, gimme some candy!” and out it comes.

ROBOT DELIVERY
This one is a little more complex, but instead of going outside to personally meet trick-or-treaters, you could send a robot. Now, most people don’t have access to a personal Starship or Kiwibot, but the Keyes family over in Austin, TX have developed their own cool looking candy carrying robot (see below). If you don’t have that mechanical know-how, maybe strap a tray on top of a remote controlled car and drive it down to the curb?

The Keyes family also created Arty! He is a remote-controlled robot they plan to use to deliver candy to trick-or-treaters. 👻 @kvue

The Keyes family said they can't turn their garage into a hunted house because of safety precautions but with Arty, they can still spread joy. pic.twitter.com/vgQv0JupKr

— Daranesha Herron (@Daraneshatv) September 26, 2020

CANDY BY DRONE
I’m thinking that for potential legal and regulatory reasons, I should say that you should definitely not try this at home. But over on done maker, DJI’s forum, you can see where someone did indeed deliver candy using a drone and some rope. There are definite navigational issues with this approach, with the rope swinging wildly (it’s no Google Wing), but perhaps the drone expert in your life could hack together a better solution. And then not use it because, again, we think that is a crazy idea.

Of course, if you’re looking to discourage trick or treaters, you could 3D print this double barrel candy corn launcher, because candy corn is gross.

Do you have any contactless candy dispensing hacks? Leave a comment and let us know!

August 25, 2020

Will Pure Over’s All-Glass, No-Paper Filter Coffee Device Win Over Crowdfunders?

There is no shortage of solutions out there promising to improve your morning cup of coffee. But that hasn’t stopped Pure Over from throwing its hat into the ring with a new pour over solution that launched on Kickstarter today.

Pure Over’s is pitching an all-glass pour over system that doesn’t require anything beyond ground coffee and water. In other words, no filters. The Pure Over uses a “cake filtration” system, so traditional filters are not necessary.

I spoke with Etai Rahmil, CEO and Founder of the Portland, OR-based Pure Over this week by phone. During our call, he explained the benefits of his all-glass setup. First, it cuts down on waste because you don’t need single-use paper filters. But also, “Paper filters are superfine, they filter out the oils,” Rahmil said. “The glass filter brings out more bold chewy mouthfeels. Like a french press.” Additionally, Rahmil said that since glass does not impart any flavors, like a metal filter might, you get a more unadulterated drink. “The only thing in your cup is coffee,” he said.

As noted above, we’ve written about a ton of coffee\-related Kickstarter products over the years. Many of these have suffered huge delays. (Hello, Spinn and Kelvin!) Others never reached their backers. (Hello Rite Press!) I asked Rahmil why his product would be different and why he’ll be able to make the difficult leap from prototype to full-scale production.

“We’ve been working on this for two years,” Rahmil said of the product, “I think that me being a glass artist, I’ve been able to prototype and design this in a way that makes manufacturing easier. There are no electronics. No plastics.”

Rahmil said that they’ve already done a small manufacturing run of 100 units to send out to friends and family and coffee influencers.

As with backing any crowdfunded hardware, caveat emptor, buyer beware. You can get your own Pure Over for pledge of at least $35, with units expected to ship in December of this year.

July 2, 2020

The Re_ Device Promises to Let You Grow Your Own Edible Insects at Home

Look, I know the global pandemic pushed us towards growing more of our own food and changing our eating habits. But have we reached the point where we’re ready to grow — and consume — our own insects at home?

That’s the question Beobia looks to answer next week when it launches a Kickstarter campaign to crowdfund its Re_ device. The Re_ is a series of five stackable pods that allow you to grow between 100 – 300 grams of mealworms per harvest. According to Beobia, mealworms are 54 percent protein, and “22,000 time more water efficient than beef.”

The grow pods themselves are 3D printed and made from recycled bioplastics. The company doesn’t get into the specifics around the insects or how long it takes to harvest them, but the site mealwormcare.org says they come from darkling beetles, and take between 1– 4 weeks to grow from egg to larvae (which is the mealworm).

The site also doesn’t say how much the Re_ will cost, only that early Kickstarter backers will get a 30 percent discount. The Kickstarter campaign officially launches on July 7.

Edible insects are certainly nothing new to The Spoon. We’ve covered a number of edible insect companies including a cricket protein powder, fried grasshoppers at stadiums, and the funding to build the world’s largest insect farm.

But with almost every story about edible bugs that we’ve written was the caveat, Will people eat them? To be more specific, will people in the U.S. eat them? Despite them being packed with protein, there is still the “ick” factor to get over.

We certainly applaud Beobia and its efforts to create a more sustainable and self-sufficient food system. But at the same time, there is something a little unsettling in the company’s promotional video when it shows someone throwing a handful of mealworms into the blender to make a morning smoothie.

But who knows? After a few more months of quarantine, I may shift my eating habits from too many carbs to a bounty of bugs.

May 18, 2020

JUST Partners with Michael Foods to Grow Foodservice Sales of Plant-based Egg

JUST announced today that it is is expanding the sales footprint of its vegan egg substitute by teaming up with Michael Foods. Michael Foods is a subsidiary of CPG giant Post Holdings and one of the largest processors of value-added eggs in the world.

With the new partnership, Michael Foods will be the sole manufacturer, supplier and distributor of JUST Egg to its existing foodservice and B2B customers — those who already buy Michael Foods’ egg brands, such as Abbotsford Farms and Papetti’s. It will begin to roll out JUST Egg starting this fall in select locations.

Made from mung beans, JUST Egg currently comes in two iterations: a liquid for scrambles, and a pre-cooked folded egg patty. Both are meant to cook up just like a chicken egg and contain comparable protein, with no cholesterol.

According to FoodDive, roughly 90 percent of JUST Egg’s sales in the U.S. come from grocery stores. The Michael Foods partnership will allow JUST to massively expand the foodservice footprint of its plant-based eggs in the U.S. In addition to restaurants, Michael Foods also caters to large venues like cafeterias, hospitals and stadiums.

Photo: JUST Egg

It’s an… interesting time for JUST to juice up its foodservice business, to say the least. Most crowded venues — like concert halls and stadiums — are shut down for the forseeable future and restaurants are operating at reduced capacity, if they’re open at all.

The point of the Michael Foods news is that JUST is putting fuel in its engine to expand rapidly across multiple channels — and geographic regions. Last year the company acquired a factory in Minnesota to increase production. In March they announced a group of new global manufacturing and distributions partners, from South Korea to Colombia. And just last week, the company announced that it was working with Emsland Group, a German leader in plant-based protein ingredients, to help them scale in Europe.

By partnering with Michael Foods, JUST is clearly thinking (far) ahead to pave the way for more sales when major venues and foodservice establishments open again. Some states are slowly opening up restaurants, but large-scale reopenings, especially for big venues like stadiums, seems far on the horizon.

We’ll have to wait and see if JUST’s partnership with Michael Foods pays off post-pandemic.

May 14, 2020

Johnny Grey on the Post-COVID Kitchen: No Cabinets, Bigger Pantries, More Pleasure

With COVID keeping many of us at home, kitchens are taking on a bigger role than ever before. They’re not just the place we cook meals; they’re also our offices, a place to teach kids homework, the background of our Zoom video calls as we cook along with family.

Considering we’ve long considered the kitchen the heart of the home, it’s no surprise that they’re shifting as we spend more and more time homebound. But how will the kitchen transform to better suit our new needs during quarantine?

To answer that question we turned to Johnny Grey, a British design leader specializing in — you guessed it — kitchens. Today Grey (and a few surprise guests) joined us for our latest Spoon Virtual Event, titled The Future of Kitchen Design in a Post-COVID19 World. He talked about some of the constants of kitchen design, how to embrace the DIY, and how the kitchen is a sort of “3D timepiece.” Here are a few of the highlights:

Fewer cabinets, more pantries
If there’s one part of conventional kitchen design that Grey absolutely hates, it’s cabinets. He thinks they take up too much space in the core of the kitchen itself, which should be a more social space.

In fact, Grey’s overarching goal with kitchen design seems to be to make it a more pleasant space for gathering. To that end, he’s a big fan of kitchen islands (or peninsulas), ideally ones with adjustable heights that can go from a bar space to a dining table.

When asked what he thought we could learn from the past, Grey answered in one word: pantries. He likes a walk-in pantry because you can see things in front of you — like all those bulk bags of dry goods you bought — and you don’t have to rely on dreaded cabinets to store everything.

Where does smart tech fit in?
For Grey, smart tech does have a role to play in kitchens of the future. Specifically when it comes to two things: precision and safety. Grey also emphasized that kitchen technology can help generations age in place. If individuals can cook for themselves, he theorizes that they won’t have to move to assisted living facilities as quickly — thus keeping them home for longer.

Photo: Innit and Sharp

The kitchen as a timepiece
During the virtual event Grey unveiled a new concept he’s been working on. Called the Evening Kitchen, he explained that the kitchen has multiple different lives during each 24-hour cycle. During the day it may be an area for quick meal prep, but in the evening it morphs into a bistro, a nightclub, or even a quiet living room, depending on the circumstances. Grey calls the kitchen a sort of “3D timepiece.”

For that reason, the evening kitchen must look different than the kitchen of daytime. Grey talks about the power of lighting, which gives intimacy, as well as smell and music to transform the space. If you’re curious you can watch his video explaining the concept here.

Especially now, embrace joy
Especially now, kitchens should be a place of joy. “It should be a pleasure to use your kitchen,” Grey said. To make it pleasurable, designers should think about touch, ease of movement, and even color. They could set up places to set a chair in the sun. Consumers themselves can do a lot to improve their kitchen. “Embrace the DIY,” Grey told the audience.

Grey also urged listeners not to put too much pressure on themselves to de-clutter, especially now that the kitchen table is also a coworking space and/or classroom. “It’s not really how people can live,” he said.

Overall, it was a fascinating conversation and — bonus — you get to enjoy Grey’s soothing British accent. You can watch the full video below.

Kitchen Design in a Post-COVID World: A Conversation with Kitchen Designer Johnny Grey

Finally, don’t forget to mark your calendar for our next event on May 21st 10am PT, when Gingko Bioworks program director Sudeep Agarwala will talk about fermentation as a food tech platform.

May 11, 2020

PepsiCo Launches Two Sites to Deliver All the Snacks to Your Doorstep

With quarantine keeping us all at home and near our pantries, we’re buying more food staples online — and snacking more, too. So it’s no surprise that PepsiCo announced today that it’s launching two ways that people can buy snacks (and other pantry items) directly.

On PantryShop.com, consumers can order curated bundles of popular PepsiCo products with names like “Family Favorites,” “Workout & Recovery,” or, of course, “Snacking.” These bundles have goods from PepsiCo brands like Gatorade, Cap’n Crunch, and Quaker. The Standard Size for the packs costs $29.95, while the larger Family Size is $49.95.

PepsiCo also launched Snacks.com, which is even more snack-specialized. On the site people can order crackers, nuts, and dips, as well as a whole litany of chips from Lays, Cheetos, Ruffles, and more. Orders over $15 ship free.

According to an email sent to The Spoon, the majority of orders placed on PantryShop.com or Snacks.com will arrive within two business days. Obviously that’s not going to sate any chip cravings happening right now, but in a time when finding a grocery delivery spot is almost as hard as finding the golden ticket, two days is actually not that long. And considering everything that PepsiCo is sending is shelf-stable, speed is not exactly of the essence.

Considering the meteoric growth of online grocery since the coronavirus pandemic began, it’s no surprise that PepsiCo is trying to take advantage by launching its own direct sales platforms. With Instacart orders, PepsiCo is competing with other brands to get in your cart. By taking the process onto their own site, they own your purchase 100 percent.

That is, if consumers will go for it. There may be increased interest in online grocery shopping, but I’m not sure if consumers are willing to add another marketplace to their digital purchasing habits. Do people have enough loyalty to PepsiCo brands to place an entirely separate snack order on Snacks.com, as opposed to just adding a few bags of Hot Cheetos to their regular online order?

I suppose, like so many things right now, we’ll have to wait and see. If PepsiCo does see some healthy interest you can bet we’ll see other Big Food brands like Coca-Cola or Nestlé following suit with their own online marketplaces. What better to go with your PepsiCo Snack Pack then a Coca-Cola Soda Pack to wash it all down?

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