Podcasts

In the most recent episode of the Spoon Podcast, I caught up with food scientist Ali Bouzari to discuss his work and get his thoughts on new technologies that are helping to shape the future of food.

I first met Bouzari when he spoke at the Culinary Institute of America a few years ago about how robotics could impact food service and other sectors. At the time, he talked about Creator—a burger restaurant powered by robots—and suggested that food robots could sometimes do things that most food service employees could not replicate. He specifically referred to how Creator’s burger bot could create more intricate structures in the burger patty than possible to enhance mouthfeel.

When I asked him about this on the podcast, he suggested that while yes, there are things technology can do, he was worried about the recent obsession with AI and using it to craft recipes and new culinary creations. He drew a parallel between AI’s notorious difficulty in rendering realistic-looking human hands in artwork and the challenge of using AI in food production.

“You know that recurring motif where somebody will put a seemingly impressive piece of AI-generated imagery up and be like, ‘My God, look at Darth Vader doing this thing in Saturday Night Fever or something.’ And everybody always says, ‘Look at the hands, look at the fingers.’ And there’s always something wrong with the hands. There’s something that is difficult for AI to crack. What I would say it is most of food is hands. Food is basically all hands.”

Bouzari also shared how multiple clients had approached him after playing with generative AI tools to experiment with developing food products. “We have clients being like, ‘Hey, ChatGPT said we should put arrowroot flour in this cookie.’ I think that somebody is feeding all of the AI brains a lot of great information about arrowroot. Because three different people on three different projects have said that AI said, ‘Have you tried arrowroot?’ which is, in a lot of instances, kind of a useless ingredient.

But thinking about things like AI have caught his attention, Bouzari told me the biggest challenge that has his attention nowadays is the impact of climate change and how food brands are facing a reality that their products may not have a future if they continue to do things – and create food products – in the same way as they have in the past.

One example he gave is the global cacao shortage. “Chocolate is in trouble,” Bouzari said. He pointed to how disruptions in cacao production are driving up costs and threatening the availability of what is a beloved staple. This isn’t some distant, theoretical issue Bouzari told me. “It’s already happening.”

And it’s not just chocolate.

“Coffee’s next,” said Bouzari. “Coffee might do a thing where, like grapes, it just creeps higher and higher latitudes as things change.”

And because of this urgency food brands are now faced with that Bouzari gets a little annoyed with how food makers are sometimes distracted with shiny new toys while missing the big picture.

“My thinking with food is it’s a little bit extra irksome, the conversation around AI sometimes, where people say, ‘I’ve spent six months trying to get this generative AI to make me a new pasta recipe,’ when I don’t think we need that. And the water and energy cost of all of that computation is directly contributing to, I think, the actual biggest existential problem we have, which is climate change.”

We also talk about Bouzari’s experience on the Netflix Show Snack vs. Chef, his thoughts on alternative proteins and what gets him excited about the future.

You can listen to the full episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or by clicking play below.